Talk to Me Johnnie,
I’ve been following the CrossFit Football programming for several months and seeing steady progress. My question is about the speed of progression. For example, the typical amateur programming calls for a Press 3×5 (add 5 lbs to last workout) each Monday. Should I realistically be able to add 5lbs to my press each week? Or is the point to continually challenge myself and add 5lbs as soon as i can complete 3×5 with a specific weight? At 5’11” and 180lbs with a 5rm press of about 125lbs, I’m fairly certain that i haven’t reached the limits of the amateur program. My diet isn’t dialed in like some of the fire breathers, but I eat well and get good rest. I’m guessing I just need to be patient and keep working. Thanks a lot for all of the programming and advice.
-Sean
Sean – An issue we see with the linear progression is some movements stalling out before others. Usually, the Press moves very slowly in comparison to the squat and deadlift. If you find that you cannot move at the suggested pace then take smaller jumps. Instead of taking a 5 lbs jump every week take a 1.25 to 2.5 lbs jump. You might have to restart the progression if you fail, several times in some cases, if your other lifts are making progress.
The Press is the most difficult movement to make gains in, so you might just have to take it slow and be patient. Another issue your press might be failing is the lack of assistance work needed to make the lift successful. I know that when pressing I am strong off my chest and the bar tends to get stuck just above my forehead. I couldn’t lock the weight out and this was coming from a weakness in my triceps. Many times the limiting factor in a lift comes from a weak link in the chain. I started doing a gang of triceps assistance work, put more emphasis on getting them strong and the result was a stronger press. Now it seems if I can get if off my chest I can press it.
At the CF Football Certifications when talk turns to the bench press, most people are not very enthusiastic. This blows my mind as I come from a place where the marker of strength is a big bench. I have heard over the last year in my travels most do not bench press and tend to avoid it like the plague. Ask a non-QB/kicker football player if they think a bench press is non functional. What is more interesting is when we begin to discuss programming, I find the bench is lacking in many programs and people wonder why their press is lacking. I think the best assistance exercise for the press is the close grip bench press and vice versa. In my opinion, you will never build a strong body if you do not train compound movements in multiple planes. For the shoulders you need to train the press, a vertical push, and a bench press, a horizontal push. For your back, you need pull ups/chin ups for a vertical pull and bent rows/supine ring pull ups for a horizontal pull. You need to squat and deadlift heavy in training opposing movements. Another one, do not discard the back squat thinking the front squat is superior. The front squat has limiting factors beyond strength that play into whether or not you have a successful lift, shoulder wrist flexibility, core stability and many others. The foundation of every strong lifter involves a bar on your back.
All and all you need to be patient, lifting weights is hard work. It is not easy and takes a lot of physical/mental fortitude. This is where the Pinky and The Brain reference comes from. Everyday we take on the same task, getting stronger. Some days we have success, many days we don’t, but it does not stop.
John
Not directly on point here but realted to strength gains, sorry. I checked the FAQ and Mission page looking for some explanation between CF and CFF bias. Saw the quotes from JW and Glassman but I’m just curious for a little more.
My 2 questions are:
1) Are CFF anf CF mutually exclusive? (one at a time not both together)
2)Is it retarded to add CFF strength portion of the programming (off season) to my exisitng CF met con experience?
I have been strict paleo and CF for 5 months and lost 35lbs (Robb Wolf podcast is a huge part of my sucess). I want to stay lean but increase strength and currently follow the lean out prescription of >50g carbs. I feel like I’m starting to stall out and have been reading the CFF site. At 6’2″ 225 former HS football/college rugby player now chubby father of 2 I feel like I need to add more strength work. I am not ready for a 5-3-1 or blackbox type progression commitment. Any help is appreciated. I love the site and wish I would have discovered so-cal s&c when I lived behind the orange curtain off east 15th street in Costa Mesa.
John,
Quick question regarding your response to Sean. If we stall on one lift as you mentioned, should we reset only on that particular movement or on all of the big 5 that you focus on in the amateur WOD? For example, if I stall on my squat, should i reset on it only and continue on the linear progression with my other major lifts or should i drop back 10% on all of them. Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I’m experiencing exactly what you mentioned above in that my back squat, deadlift and power clean are progressing well but I’ve stalled out on the bench press and the press.
Thanks for the great programming,
Mike Page
Great post and love the site. Reminds me of the Confucious quote: “It does not matter how slow you go as long as you do not stop”.
“You might have to restart the progression if you fail, several times in some cases, if your other lifts are making progress.”
If your other lifts are progressing just keep on them, if one lift stalls reset it. Keep resetting it and wring those gains out of your body.
John
on top of the individual resets, how helpful would say 1 more accessory movement be
eg: the press
add on more handstand holds pre/post wod
or
2/3×5 weighted dips x1/w
or
2/3×5 close grip bench x1/w
thanks
Who out there thinks that the front squat is superior to the back squat???
You guys are unbelievable. John answers a question and you have two questions asked in the comments that are clearly answered by the post. You guys need to read better or stop the hand holding.
John “You might have to restart the progression if you fail, several times in some cases, if your other lifts are making progress.”
then….Mike “If we stall on one lift as you mentioned, should we reset only on that particular movement or on all of the big 5 that you focus on in the amateur WOD?”
John “Another issue your press might be failing is the lack of assistance work needed to make the lift successful…I couldn’t lock the weight out and this was coming from a weakness in my triceps. Many times the limiting factor in a lift comes from a weak link in the chain. I started doing a gang of triceps assistance work, put more emphasis on getting them strong and the result was a stronger press. I think the best assistance exercise for the press is the close grip bench press and vice versa.”
then….Michael “on top of the individual resets, how helpful would say 1 more accessory movement be eg: the press add on more handstand holds pre/post wod or 2/3×5 weighted dips x1/w or 2/3×5 close grip bench x1/w”
And he posts a picture of Arnold doing weighted dips. That could be a give away.
NH Mike – mutually exclusive? Are you asking if CF Football and CF.com are dating? I don’t think they are in a committed relationship and are free to see other people.
From what I gather John started this site to answer all the questions he received from CrossFit Football. I am amazed he did it as the CF Football site is packed with an FAQ and information.
I think he might have to start another site to answer all the questions from him answering questions.
Stop the hand holding! He says that under the Consult tab incase you wonder where that came from.
JP – Thanks for the great advice. I am sure your Bio is replete with experience necessary to re-type questions. Guess I shouldn’t be on this blog. Sorry. JP -1 Confused People -0
Nuff said!!!
[…] Posted by Ben Larkin on May 27, 2010 So we train different here at FOCF, but somedays it’s back to the basics. If you want to be strong and you want the rest of your CrossFiting to get better, you need a good squat! There is no arguing this at all. Next to the Deadlift it is the most fundamental lift that must constantly be improved if you want to get better. What is the first thing that is taught to you as a CrossFitter? The SQUAT! So why do we have you lift heavy stuff. Because then we know we you will have a general physical preparedness and all around athleticism, nothing else stimulates your nervous system and musculoskeletal system like weightlifting. And the Back Squat is critical to overall strength and athletism. So have fun with it and see how much you can lift! Here is an interesting article from the CrossFit Football guys, tell us what you think. CLICK HERE […]
Thanks for posting this John. In a similar question to Michaels … you obviously believe that some assistance work or accessory work would be useful to getting past sticking points in particular moves. A better way to phrase the question may be:
How would you recommend to best fit in extra assistance/auxiliary movements in to CFFB programming on top of the SWOD and DWOD without overtraining?
BTW, US military out in Germany right now, looking forward to meeting you in Sweden!
@PJ
You’re likely not to be overtraining with assistance work if done correctly, simply due to the nature of the beast (i.e., generally, low-intensity, high-rep work).
Start slowly, one or two sessions a week, and work your way up to whatever you feel is necessary (just as an example, some guys at Westside Barbell complete as many as 10 extra sessions a week; if you were a team sport athlete, you’d also need to gauge skill and team practice time, as well as games…)
Keep in mind that these are usually on the shorter side of things, time-wise, and again, intensity does not need to be cranked up here. You can start by adding them at the end of your workouts and then as frequency increases, add some sessions on your “off-days” as well.
Also important is adjusting these over time, depending on perceived weaknesses and improvements (and if incurring any injuries…), as well as time of year/phase of training (intensive, extensive, competitive, etc.).
Hope this helps a bit!
NH Mike, I quite like your question as it relates to what I’m playing around with. Since April I’ve followed CFFB amateur SWOD religiously since I went to the Vegas cert, and thought I should try out what I had learned before throwing clients on it.
I have to admit I “cherry pick” my wods doing CFFB when it suits me, and doing my partner’s programming when I like it. I have made crazy strength gains – my squat is up 55 pounds which is huge since I’m 45 and about out of testosterone. I find that CFFB SWOD has enough volume to make sick strength gains while leaving one enough energy to undertake pretty much any wod they want, although my religion forbids me from doing any of the +20 minute wods. Before converting to CFFB SWOD I was doing 5/3/1. I made significant gains on that, but the volume is much higher and I didn’t feel like doing any wod at all after that.
Thanks Eric! that makes sense.
Thanks for sharing this … great topic! Bill Starr has some great comments about the Press here: http://www.crossfitfootball.com/uploads/football/file/stronger_press_starr.pdf
[…] so that they can generate the force to power through that shoulder press sticking point. Read this Welbourne article for more […]
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